A verbal bouquet! What a lovely notion. I try hard to smile or grin conspiratorially at a mom when her kid is in full meltdown in a public place, to show that I understand they are sometimes entirely irrational and it’s no reflection on her! Also the phrase “you have a beautiful family” seems well received.
I also say, “you’re doing great!” when the kids are giving her a hard time, but I’m not sure it translates culturally here in the UK as well as it could.
When someone apologizes to me for their kids' behavior, if I think it's age-appropriate (it usually is), I say something like, "It takes a lot of years to learn to keep your clothes on in public, doesn't it?" Because it does! It takes a lot of years to learn that, and someone who is three years old has not had a lot of years of life yet! I don't want to endorse the immature behavior (and I generally think parents should intervene, because it's primarily the parents' job to teach things like wearing clothes in public), but I think it's silly to expect children to act like they have more life experience and brain development than they do, and I try to communicate that in a respectful way. A friend once apologized for his 2yo son hitting my kids, and I could tell he was embarrassed. I told him something along these lines, and then said, "If he's 16 years old and still hitting my kids, I'll be upset." The *reason* kids live at home and stay close to adults is because they haven't yet learned a lot of things that they need to learn.
Mary, this is the perfect phrase: "It takes a lot of years to learn to..." I'm going to have to adopt this. It acknowledges the good effort the parent is making without making them feel embarrassed or contradicting the parent (sometimes it's hard when someone generously says, "Oh, it's okay, it's fine!" and then your kid thinks maybe they can keep doing the behavior when it's really not an okay behavior). I think it also subtly communicates to new parents that these things take time, which is good information to have.
This is great! I want to incorporate this into my conversation. It's a great way to affirm that you understand, but also support a parent in trying to teach them the correct ways of behaving.
Once when I was nannying, I remember telling the dad how naughty the children had been, and he sighed and said, "it takes a long time to cultivate the habits of virtue" - which is just so true!
Also this idea was pretty powerful. “In my sample, women had more children despite these costs because they valued children enough to give up those things. In this framework, it isn’t hard to see why more maternity leave or cash benefits do not make a dent in birth rates—even if they are the right thing to do. People purchase children with their own selves. You can’t really compensate them enough to give up status, lifestyle, interests, and sleeping through the night. As for maternity leave, the tradeoffs women face between children and other things lasts for decades, not a few weeks after birth.”
This economic issue is actually tied to identity and a willingness to sacrifice one’s very self… which is hard to “buy” back from people with a little tax bonus.
I thought this was a great observation, too: policies can have only limited effects because of this. Having and raising a child is not a discrete project that just needs a little boost to make possible, and then it's done, and there are no more costs.
Kerri, the book's interviews had me thinking a LOT about how we compare decisions about openness to children and how wisdom, prudence, and "common sense" have very different definitions to people. The same face-value costs and benefits for two families might take very different approaches to family planning. I kept thinking how MUCH these women gave up (in many ways, not just one) and to some other couple that is *obviously* foolish. So I came away with the fact that our prudent discernment is very much going to include calculations in our heads that others may not understand. There's a lot of people who might, for various reasons, say having XYZ number of kids is "foolish" so I always want to press the question of why? The definition of cost and benefits are really very unique to each couple, I suppose.
Haley, this is why I think that Humanae Vitae's insistence on leaving the discernment about family planning to the couple is so wise, even though I know many people find it frustrating. This protects a family for whom, for example, a health issue is an insurmountable obstacle that they feel justifies delaying or avoiding pregnancy from being judged by a family for whom that same health issue may not be as big of a deal (because their circumstances or history or whatever is different). I mean, it doesn't prevent the judgment, but it gives the couple confidence that they can make their own prudent, prayerful judgment with moral safety, no matter what the Joneses say/think/choose.
Yes! And to clarify, are you talking about Catholics for whom family planning via abstinence is *wrong?* (even though it is explicitly allowed)? The ones who find it frustrating, that is.
Not only. I think it can be very tempting for many people to say "well, I had a uterine prolapse and I kept on having babies so she should, too," or whatever. But every family has different circumstances, so it's good for the discernment to be left to the couple (starting with certain sound principles), rather than for a church to say something like "financial strain is never a morally legitimate reason to abstain" or something like that.
It goes the other way, too: "She must be in such bad health because she had all those babies, and it's her own fault. I'm in good health because I used NFP!" That's not fair, either.
Yes it’s so interesting to see how others weight up certain factors in decision-making! I love interviews as a genre for this very reason.
Prudence is by definition the application of a general moral norm to particular circumstances, so one person making a prudent choice is not going to look like another making a prudent choice bc they each have different particular circumstances… but I think the conversation around big families and welcoming children could benefit from clarity around what the general moral norm to be prudently implemented is. (It’s a foundational question that sometimes gets skipped.)
I mean, it doesn’t have to be done here! :) I just meant that I think sometimes it gets lost in conversation.
"I think the conversation around big families and welcoming children could benefit from clarity around what the general moral norm to be prudently implemented is."
I understand there are serious mental and physical considerations (and many other things!), but from what I've gathered from many people I've interacted with, aspects of money and what it can provide for childhood (or lump sums for college/weddings/down payments) plays an ENORMOUS factor. And I wonder if it should. I don't know. Maybe this is different than what you're describing. But certain levels of finances almost come into the "moral" aspect in an odd way.
I think financial considerations interact with all sorts of other considerations. A family without financial worries may not have adequate social support to weather another HG pregnancy, for example, while a very poor family may have the social support needed to go ahead and have more kids, for example. That is to say, I think that many big factors come together in a different constellation for each family.
Ahh gotcha. Yes, absolutely. I'm thinking more along the lines of, "if you can't pay for their college tuition, it's irresponsible to have that child."
Yeah, you are totally right. I do think a lot of people set a pretty high financial bar for themselves in terms of "when it's okay to have/have more children." Carney showed that this is a huge factor in young people not wanting to have kids or delaying having kids.
Also, that word: "irresponsible." It points to the idea, so prevalent in modern American culture, that no one should ask anything of anyone else unless they are paying for it. In that calculus, the fact that a child might one day have to get a student loan or a scholarship makes it irresponsible to bring that child into existence. I think that is deeply wrongheaded.
But as I write these words, I'm aware that I may sound like I'm saying I know the perfect point at which "not having enough money" suddenly stops becoming a good reason to not have children. I don't know it. And maybe it is different from one family to another. But still, it does seem that we ought to be able to make generalizations about these things...but maybe we need to make them more humbly than we generally do.
That's an intriguing insight, Kerri. Can you say a little more about this? I'm having trouble grasping what level of moral norm you mean. Can you give a "for example" to help me understand?
(I may have been thinking of "welcoming children prudently" as the moral norm, which is then applied by couples according to their circumstances and discernment.
But if prudence means applying the moral norm according to discernment, then this doesn't work *as* a moral norm.)
Yes. So for Catholics, for example, the nature of marriage having a dual telos of union for the couple and procreation of children would imply that those two things are morally normative in marriage. When and how may vary by couple, but to do anything *against* these ends would not be a prudent implementation of the norm, but rather a rejection of it.
If a couple believed in having an “open marriage” for what they thought was the good of their union, they may want to claim that it’s merely a prudent decision about how to best be united. But in fact it is contrary.
I think what I was trying to say is that sometimes in these conversations (*sweeps arm widely and generally*), “prudence” is mistaken for “subjectively good intentions” rather than “subjective implementation of an objective norm.”
I think really it boils down to people using the word “prudence” apart from understanding how that virtue is defined. (Again, not here, just in general!)
What do I find most encouraging from others? The retirees at daily Mass. They are some of the greatest people I know. We need other adults we trust (and that our kids know and trust). There are several retirement-age women who I see frequently at daily Mass and they often ask to hold a kid, or if my kids are getting squirmy, I know that I can pass one of them off. One time I was walking up to Communion and literally dragging a child who was too big to be carried but too young to have the emotional maturity to just walk. (It was Sunday, so more crowded and with more strangers, but I was there solo with this kid. I was holding the child's hands; the child's belly to toes were sliding across the floor.) After about 4 seconds of doing this, I realized that it was embarrassing, and I spotted a young woman* who I know from daily Mass. I asked my child, "Do you want to sit with her?" and that was agreeable, so I gave the child to the young woman, received Communion, and then hovered nearby in the aisle so I could retrieve my child if things weren't going well. My child sat SO PEACEFULLY with this young woman for the rest of Mass.
I wish I had more contexts wherein I could easily hand my kids off to another adult, but it is what it is. The people who are daily Mass regulars are generally trustworthy and kindhearted people, and it's a small enough crowd that it's not overwhelming numbers of people.
* It's mostly retirees who do things like this but this particular young woman is really great in a similar way. The retirees often tell me they miss their grandkids who are three states away, or they don't have grandkids, and I know it's a joy for them to play peek-a-boo for a few minutes a week. There's one who often tells me, "When I see you, I always hope you'll hand me the baby for Mass." So it's a win-win. They get a baby fix; my arms and back and attention get a much needed respite; my kids learn that Mass is a place full of good people who love God.
Wow. What a blessing such people are, and what an encouragement to become such a person! A little thing like someone taking the baby or helping the toddler can make a parent go from feeling like a total hot mess failure to valued and composed in an instant.
Yes! Health permitting, I plan to be this kind of retiree. It is so helpful when they tell me they miss their grandkids or they miss when their own kids were this little, or if they indicate somehow that it's a joy for them. Otherwise it can feel like pity which doesn't help the hot mess feeling!
I'm going to tell two stories and one will sound like I am tooting my own horn but I promise that's not my intention - many years ago I was on an airplane flight and was sharing a three seat row with a mom who was traveling with a baby and a little boy. I offered to hold her baby so she could get the boy settled in his seat and I remember so clearly the look of relief on her face! At the time I thought she was grateful for the help (and I was happy to provide it! Babies were an uncommon feature of my life at that time!) but now looking back as a mom she was probably also grateful to know that the person she shared a row with wasn't going to spend the whole flight glaring at her and her children.
I also once saw an elderly man on a bus nonchalantly pull out a handkerchief, tie a corner in a knot so that it looked like a rabbit, and spend nearly 10 silent minutes making the rabbit "pop" out of his lunch box, his crossed legs, his crossed arms, all to the wonder of a toddler across the way. He didn't say a single word, he hardly even looked at his "audience" but he welcomed that child and their parent into a public space in the most joyful way. I have never forgotten him.
My point is, in a variety of contexts I think very small gestures can go a long way towards saying to parents and their children, "It is good that you are here. Welcome."
I often think about the fact that the child he was amusing was far too young at the time for that to be a durable memory, but I, who was not the intended audience, will never forget it! Proof that goodness ripples outward and that those who we intend to help are not always the ones who will receive the greatest benefits from our actions.
Church can actually be one of the most difficult places to find a welcome as a large family, especially when we’ve generally chosen to keep our children with us throughout the service. Our church has a note in the bulletin welcoming families with children, telling where the cry room and changing table is and assuring them that squawking is not a problem. It’s one of the things we noticed first! I understand that there’s a lot of different feelings about children in church, and that some really prefer a Sunday School option, but we’ve been so thankful for the appreciation and encouragement of the older folks at church who love our babies (even when we make multiple trips into the foyer during a service — we usually only get a smile). I’m not much of a baby passer myself, but there would be ample arms available if I wanted them :)
Sometimes if I’m by myself in a store and see a mom struggling I make a point to smile and say she’s doing great, but accompany it with “I have 5 at home!” so she knows I’m not saying this from a judgmental place.
We do not live in a place where people are very charitable towards children and it can be so exhausting. I get tired of being looked at like I have two heads whenever I go anywhere with everyone. The rude comments can really get to you, so I agree that verbal encouragement is welcome! “You have a beautiful family” “You’re very blessed” “How fun to have all these siblings!”
I also feel for my children having to overhear the comments and do my best to answer positively no matter what people say, so that they know that regardless of other people’s opinions I am happy to be their mother.
"I also feel for my children having to overhear the comments and do my best to answer positively no matter what people say, so that they know that regardless of other people’s opinions I am happy to be their mother."
In my opinion, this is the most important thing about these interactions: what our responses mean to our children!
I agree about church. I don't know how to change certain church cultures so that, for example, people offer to hold babies or help with toddlers, as Mary describes happening at daily Mass at her church; in some churches, this happens, and in others, it doesn't. I think the pastor can really help by setting a tone, and things like changing tables and announcements and such, as you note, can really help! But other than that, I don't know what to do. I try to offer to hold babies, but only once or twice at church has someone else offered to hold my baby...it's weird. Is it something about me? Or our parish? Or what?
I don't want to get into the "what is the place/proper role/behavior of kids in church" argument here (I know you don't want to either!) but I really am curious to know what needs to change so that grannies and aunties in the wider community feel safe and comfortable and willing to offer help. Maybe the grannies and aunties are not getting the love and support they need? Maybe mother and fathers can do something to help be more open and welcoming and supportive to those in the community who aren't surrounded by kids?
It's a bigger question than I can answer.
But -- we can do so much to encourage others by just being positive and warm when we see them out with their children!
Re. the grannies and aunties thing — I do think some of this is on the younger moms for being too wary, or not liking the way they do things. I am thinking of one dear lady in particular who I pushed back against so hard because she is just such a baby kisser and it drove me crazy… AND several years later as we prepare to move she’s one of the people I’ll miss most. Our co-op this year (and specifically structuring it so that we expressed a real need and desire for help from the older women) went a long way to building those relationships and just creating some comfortability. And I absolutely agree that the pastor sets the tone. Ours has seven children, a few of whom are often the squawking ones, so the fact that he is completely unbothered by it, I think smoothes the tone from some who might otherwise be curmudgeons. But I do think the street must be walked both ways, and I’ve definitely been too stand offish to my own detriment.
Your story gives me a lot to ponder. I do think people -- especially men -- are afraid to offer help, in case someone takes offense or worse. I also think moms are afraid to ask for help, for a variety of reasons.
I was thinking yesterday about the movie "Steel Magnolia," and the women in it whom none of the other women like. And yet they still accept and embrace her as part of their tight-knit group.
Maybe because our communities aren't as frequently characterized by long-term, lieflong or even generational roots these days as they once were, we don't have ways of having conflict (or even dislike) and yet still going on in relationship with a person. We aren't connected enough for our relationships to be able to handle the rejection or hurt that comes from a crossed line or a misunderstanding. Our social ties are often based, instead, on perfect behavior.
Would that we had communities in which a mom telling an older lady point blank (sometimes, this may be needed!) to back off -- or an older lady telling a mom point blank (sometimes, this may be needed!) to make her kid cut it out -- wouldn't be disastrous, but would be a flash in the pan thing that could be dealt with in a stable social context.
"We aren't connected enough for our relationships to be able to handle the rejection or hurt that comes from a crossed line or a misunderstanding. Our social ties are often based, instead, on perfect behavior." - This is 100% correct Dixie. Recently we were at donuts after Mass and my husband was essentially body slammed by a ~10 year old boy who was running through the crowded parish hall playing tag with his friends. My husband was not physically injured but he was, we'll say highly irked, and we left immediately. We do not know this boy's family but we see them weekly at Mass and due to the status differences between us we do not feel comfortable engaging with them in this scenario. However, if the shoe is ever on the other foot I would not want someone to do what we did! I would want them to say (to my child, if they were old enough to understand as this child was), "This is not appropriate behavior and you nearly hurt someone, please stop."
What a great illustration, Amy. Yes, we seem to have lost our customs for the space in between "do not engage" and "go nuclear," both in terms of actions and in terms of feelings. It strikes me that several decades ago, you probably would have had some more options, and you probably would have been able to expect a respectful response from both the child and his parents after the collision! There would have been a social contract about how such things could be handled.
I think this is why people call the cops on a child who is at the park unsupervised or the like, instead of talking to the child, or waiting with the child and talking with the parent. Or just keeping an eye out in case the child needed help. People *do* feel concerned or upset or whatever, but they are afraid/don't know how to interact over that. So they call the cops.
On your Steel Magnolias comment and getting burned: yes. I’m cautiously optimistic that this will change, at least in parishes that have child-friendly cultures and as bigger families become more common. Moms who have raised some and, I think, especially lots of children have less problem risking offense because we’ve been there. At least I know I’m more like this. And I think our kids will be, too. And helps breeds help; it’s easier to be helpful to big families when there are big families all over the place.
And also yes on the pastor response. My pastor husband purposely smiles when he has to pause for kid yelling during church. Everyone knows he loves kids because he has eight. That’s a huge church culture statement.
I think the mere presence of big families (or children in general, whether from big families or small) does go a long way! But I also see situations in which the number of big families gives the illusion of a supportive culture, but there is a lack of intergenerational interaction and mutual support -- i.e. there are a lot of big families, but their only social interactions are peer interactions. This causes problems because A) young parents miss out on the gift of wisdom from older generations and the gift of energy from even younger people, and B) parents of large families are very limited in what kind of support they can offer to each other. That's why we need the aunties and the grandmas and the 14-year-olds! They can help parents with young children in a way that such families cannot help each other.
This seems to need some sort of deliberate intervention to make happen -- to make an intergenerational community develop out of a peer-based one.
I know it used to happen organically, based on many generations of families in the same locale. I don't know if it can happen organically in this different context that is lacking in longterm foundations. I do know that at least sometimes it doesn't happen organically.
Absolutely true—just because big families are around doesn’t mean there’s support, especially intergenerational. I think when Christians are, well, Christians and we pay attention to our neighbors, we pew sitters step in to lend hands as we are able (thinking of some church grandmas here who have problems with balance, etc., who could hold a small baby but not really be able to do much with a squirmy toddler). But I’ve been in groups and in churches where older people—often with their own grandchildren that they watch/care for regularly—don’t do anything to help clearly struggling moms and dads with many children. Maybe they were clueless, maybe it was a generational judgment (“well, you’re only supposed to have as many kids as I did or people around me did when we were your age. If you have more, that’s on you, and I’m not helping”). The latter is a worst case scenario, of course, but I do think there are shades of it that happen.
We’re blessed to be at a church now where people step in all the time: moms and teenage daughters with no younger siblings help with other people’s littles; empty nesters with no grandkids share pews with my family and others. I think having a lot of people who are transplants to our area makes a difference. When people move as adults and aren’t around biological family, they appreciate when others care for them, and they turn and do the same for others.
I was thinking the other day when I posted that eventually, the rise of bigger families should be reflected in ongoing care of families as time passes. Hannah’s Children writ large, as it were. Older women who’ve “been there” will model what older women historically always have done prior to fifty or so years ago. Call it sanctification Titus 2 style or whatever, but it will be more organic and naturally generous. At least I’m starting to see that now and hope it will continue. Yes, I know it isn’t everywhere, but things have to start somewhere, right?
That’s awful. I’m so sorry to hear it. Our church likes to say, “a quiet church is a dying church.” And trust me, there are lots of big families and chaotic kids and to keep the church from being quiet! “Let the children come to me.” ❤️
I have a chip on my shoulder about this because of the insistence on silence at church when we first moved here, which still stings me. But in practice, that insistence is largely gone now at our parish, which is wonderful!
I’ve found from a few towns in which I’ve lived, the churches that adopt this attitude really grow! In one town, we had a huge influx of new families one Sunday and when I asked why, they said they had a visiting priest at their parish who lectured everyone about keeping their children quiet and then the older parishioners applauded. So sad and detrimental to the parish as a whole.
I was at a play date recently where a mom was sharing about her struggles with a sixth baby and another mom responded about how much she loved being from a family of six kids. It was such an encouraging comment and made everyone smile. I think it can be helpful to be reminded of the big picture (and not in the sometimes annoying “you’ll miss this” or “it goes by so fast” type comments). I know I benefited from Jen Fulwiler’s perspective on imagining a future thanksgiving table. It’s SO easy to get bogged down in the daily struggles of the little kid phase.
What a great summary of much of the book! I was extremely glad to have read (listened to) it this week.
I especially liked your question on practical help and encouragement. That was one thing, during the course of the book, I really wish we could have heard more about. There was *some* of that, but really the only itch I wanted scratched by the end of it was a bit more of logistics. For those who weren't homeschooling, how did they school? Did they have any other helpers besides the older siblings? How did they manage doctor's appointments? Were they near any grandparents? Did they do any swapping with women in their church when they needed a break? How did they do many of the things I have so many questions about regarding large families!
I realize that was not the focused aim of the research, just something I would have liked to ask the women if if was up to me. :)
It's funny, because people say women just want you to listen -- they don't want help with solutions. Well, I want help with solutions! But yes, that wasn't the point of this particular study, and that's fine.
I think you were reading Tim Carney's new book, too, right Haley? In some ways I think these two books can go well together. Pakaluk on the why/understanding, Carney on the how.
I guess we just keep going, keep trying, and keep doing our best to encourage one another!
Haley I am planning to take your advice and read them as a sort of diptych! And I also LOVE familial logistics. I can't remember the name of the Substack series but someone is doing one on how women are doing their various types of work (I think you've restacked it so I am pretty sure you already read it) and I just dig it so much. I think this dates back to my blog-reading days, I find it very helpful when people explain not just what their life consists of but how they make it work!
Don't be embarrassed -- Kerri is the nicest ever, and she'll be so delighted that you enjoy the interviews! Nobody remembers names and series names all the time...
I enjoyed the article. One observation I have: I appreciate the recommendation to people to offer help in the form of time. However, the later discussion that motherhood is a season and women with large families can eventually move into careers is actually missing the bigger picture. If women only give themselves to motherhood while there children are still in the home, and later give themselves to full time employment, there will be no grandmas, great-grandmas or aunties to lend a hand to the younger women in the throes of child rearing. I guess I mean to say that Motherhood is a calling and never actually ends. I have a large family (7 kids) and 6 grandkids so far. My youngest child is still at home. If I pursue a career after she leaves the nest, I will not have much or any time or availability to help my children raise their kids. I think we Grandmas should consider this as our phase of motherhood changes. I have found great blessing to help with the babies as they have arrived, as have my children in their years of caring for nieces and nephews at my side.
Thank you for this observation, Dawn. I think the author was trying to give hope to those women who seek careers later in life, but I also think that you are noting something equally important: that full-time homemaking is a good that can go far beyond the "littles" years. I do agree that mothering never ends, and I would add that this is the case for mothers with outside careers, too; but I get what you mean about the energy and attention needed to mother well. We have to remember that kids don't stop needing us as they get older!
Indeed, the lack of intergenerational support among women (perhaps among men, too? But I'm less familiar with that) is a real problem that could be significantly improved by the presence of more older homemakers, I think. But to do that, at least some younger homemakers need to turn into older homemakers! And it would be helpful for many to do this deliberately.
I am certainly starting to see in my own life (my eldest child is almost 13) that there is a shift in the energies needed as a homemaker starts to have teenagers. It is not a lessening of energies -- there's still a lot of need here! We should make sure that we don't mistake that shift as an indication that focusing one's energies on homemaking and full-time child-rearing is no longer appropriate.
I'm glad different women can do different things according to their own circumstances, including careers! But society does also need homemakers at all ages/stages of family life, and across family boundaries, too!
Did you see my friend Ivana Greco's outstanding piece on the beauty and craft of homemaking at Public Discourse this week? She does a good job explaining the long-term value of building expertise and sticking with homemaking: https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2024/05/94909/
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I’ll check out that link soon. My own mother and father in retirement years have poured into our children’s lives (and now the grand- and great-grandchildren) in ways that have added immeasurable value to our family.
You are correct to observe that though it seems that the parenting load should lighten as children become more independent, it actually gets more complex. And also (hopefully) more enjoyable as we develop friendships with the blossoming adults. My friends and I all thought we would pick up hobbies and pursuits when our homeschooled children graduated but we now have less time to pursue our many interests than ever….but we all rejoice in the overflowing bounty of this new season. We have narrowed our focus to pursuits that can include our adult children and grandchildren and in this our joy increases exponentially!
I had decided long ago to forego career outside the home, and it turns out that I am glad to continue my vocation as homemaker and assistant-homemaker to the new families our kids are establishing. I am also seeking to encourage my daughters and DILs in this eternally rewarding path as well. So I guess I am one of those previous young homemakers who is turning into an older homemaker! And as it turns out, kids young and old never stop needing their moms.
I am very thankful for this gift that you are giving to your family and your wider community! And how wonderful to see such support handed down through generations, each first being supported and then supporting the next generation of first-time parents.
We have 5 children - I wanted more but my husband said, "I think 5 is a good number." ;) Now that my children are grown, I like to babysit for my young friends with young children, to give them a nice evening out together. Having had 3 rambunctious boys, I can commiserate with them while attesting to "this stage too shall pass."
What a lovely thing to do, Edie. I'm sure that means a lot to your friends -- and I bet you are developing special relationships with their children, too!
Just finished watching Stephen Shaw's documentary Birthgap: Childless World the other night. The stats on childlessness and birth rates are disturbing and that is putting it lightly.
I think some of the really scary stats need to be shouted from the roof tops to high school and college aged women. For instance Stephen states that if a woman reaches 30 with no children she is only 50% likely to have any child at all!
I haven't seen that documentary, but I agree that this is all very concerning, and that there's not a lot of awareness about it.
I do know that in subcultures that prioritize family (or at least at the Catholic college at which my husband teaches!), this is actually very well understood. Sometimes these young people need encouragement to remember that it's okay if you are 21 and haven't found a spouse yet -- there's still time! But in the general culture, I think the mood and advice for people in their twenties is a bit misleading. One does read these plaintive essays by women in their mid-thirties who really did think that having a first baby at 35 would be as easy as at 28 or 25 or 23. And they didn't realize because the whole culture was telling them that they shouldn't even be considering settling down until well into their thirties.
We all have our own paths to take, but it is frustrating when the advice and information that the culture stresses to young people is just inaccurate.
The comments on this post are so refreshing. So much honesty is happening. I have not read "Hannah's Children" although I just added it to my want to read list on Goodreads. As a sometimes very frazzled mother of now five children, eight and under, it means so much to me when people verbally encourage me or tell me how much they love seeing my family at mass or that my family is beautiful to them. I think I can relate to being too easily spooked when older women at my parish have stepped in to help me. It's really hard to decide in those harried moments of baby fussing, toddler attempting to escape, five year old giggling, etc. what my comfort level is in accepting help from older women who I like very much but don't know a whole lot about. This is good food for thought. Someone also mentioned in the comments that in order for older women to choose to continue to "stay home" after their children are grown in order to help with their grandchildren, younger moms need to express a desire and need for their help or else they will not know that there is a beautiful role for them still in the community in a maternal capacity. It's a chance for me to reevaluate what my boundaries are, and consider where I could ask for more help or how I could push my comfort level a little bit in that area and just see how it goes. We need each other, desperately.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience, Brooklyn. I think it's important to remember that nobody can be perfect in these interactions, and it's okay if you don't always quite know what to do in the middle of the "frazzle!" I am often in that situation, too. I would love for us to develop relationships within communities that have reslience enough to brush past this kind of thing. We'll get there!
Exactly, in those stressful moments, mamas might not be very able to accept help in a way they have never considered before. The idea of spending some time to think about how I could ask for or receive help from kind older women at my parish is worth sitting with and I am glad for that little nugget which was sparked by reading these comments. Thanks for facilitating this much needed conversation!
We live in a neighborhood where many of our friends from our church have also bought homes. In some cases, it’s been a sacrifice to those of us who dreamed of a more agrarian life, but it’s also so full of blessing that it has been great. There are grandparents on the street who give the kids Graham crackers at 3 pm if they can recite a poem. There are a couple of multi unit homes where grad students and young singles live who offer to babysit. There are kids of all ages running around. I never worry about appointments because there are high school girls and like 8 families who are willing to watch each other’s children. We all homeschool so are used to popping in to borrow a cup of sugar from a woman whose house has been destroyed by toddlers while she schools big kids It has been such a huge blessing and i wish everyone had it!! Truly…such a gift that priests who have been here and move try to convince their parishioners to start moving closer together. The only problem is that it’s risky to go in an evening walk because someone will offer you a cocktail and before you know it, you’re pooling your dinner and hanging out far too long into the night. Haha!
What a wonderful blessing, Kelsi! Hopefully the kids who grow up in this environment will go on to be generous neighbors as adults. You are doing great work!
A verbal bouquet! What a lovely notion. I try hard to smile or grin conspiratorially at a mom when her kid is in full meltdown in a public place, to show that I understand they are sometimes entirely irrational and it’s no reflection on her! Also the phrase “you have a beautiful family” seems well received.
I also say, “you’re doing great!” when the kids are giving her a hard time, but I’m not sure it translates culturally here in the UK as well as it could.
Yes! It's hard to know how people will take whatever you do or say, alas, and I imagine it is indeed different in different cultures.
When someone apologizes to me for their kids' behavior, if I think it's age-appropriate (it usually is), I say something like, "It takes a lot of years to learn to keep your clothes on in public, doesn't it?" Because it does! It takes a lot of years to learn that, and someone who is three years old has not had a lot of years of life yet! I don't want to endorse the immature behavior (and I generally think parents should intervene, because it's primarily the parents' job to teach things like wearing clothes in public), but I think it's silly to expect children to act like they have more life experience and brain development than they do, and I try to communicate that in a respectful way. A friend once apologized for his 2yo son hitting my kids, and I could tell he was embarrassed. I told him something along these lines, and then said, "If he's 16 years old and still hitting my kids, I'll be upset." The *reason* kids live at home and stay close to adults is because they haven't yet learned a lot of things that they need to learn.
Mary, this is the perfect phrase: "It takes a lot of years to learn to..." I'm going to have to adopt this. It acknowledges the good effort the parent is making without making them feel embarrassed or contradicting the parent (sometimes it's hard when someone generously says, "Oh, it's okay, it's fine!" and then your kid thinks maybe they can keep doing the behavior when it's really not an okay behavior). I think it also subtly communicates to new parents that these things take time, which is good information to have.
yes! all of that. I like "it takes a lot of years" because "a long time" can also refer to hours or days and that's not what I want to communicate
This is great! I want to incorporate this into my conversation. It's a great way to affirm that you understand, but also support a parent in trying to teach them the correct ways of behaving.
Once when I was nannying, I remember telling the dad how naughty the children had been, and he sighed and said, "it takes a long time to cultivate the habits of virtue" - which is just so true!
Also this idea was pretty powerful. “In my sample, women had more children despite these costs because they valued children enough to give up those things. In this framework, it isn’t hard to see why more maternity leave or cash benefits do not make a dent in birth rates—even if they are the right thing to do. People purchase children with their own selves. You can’t really compensate them enough to give up status, lifestyle, interests, and sleeping through the night. As for maternity leave, the tradeoffs women face between children and other things lasts for decades, not a few weeks after birth.”
This economic issue is actually tied to identity and a willingness to sacrifice one’s very self… which is hard to “buy” back from people with a little tax bonus.
I thought this was a great observation, too: policies can have only limited effects because of this. Having and raising a child is not a discrete project that just needs a little boost to make possible, and then it's done, and there are no more costs.
Kerri, the book's interviews had me thinking a LOT about how we compare decisions about openness to children and how wisdom, prudence, and "common sense" have very different definitions to people. The same face-value costs and benefits for two families might take very different approaches to family planning. I kept thinking how MUCH these women gave up (in many ways, not just one) and to some other couple that is *obviously* foolish. So I came away with the fact that our prudent discernment is very much going to include calculations in our heads that others may not understand. There's a lot of people who might, for various reasons, say having XYZ number of kids is "foolish" so I always want to press the question of why? The definition of cost and benefits are really very unique to each couple, I suppose.
*This is more a comment than a question* haha
Haley, this is why I think that Humanae Vitae's insistence on leaving the discernment about family planning to the couple is so wise, even though I know many people find it frustrating. This protects a family for whom, for example, a health issue is an insurmountable obstacle that they feel justifies delaying or avoiding pregnancy from being judged by a family for whom that same health issue may not be as big of a deal (because their circumstances or history or whatever is different). I mean, it doesn't prevent the judgment, but it gives the couple confidence that they can make their own prudent, prayerful judgment with moral safety, no matter what the Joneses say/think/choose.
A Catholic couple, I mean. I know you aren't Catholic! But I know we also respect each other's faith traditions and benefit from sound moral theology.
Yes! And to clarify, are you talking about Catholics for whom family planning via abstinence is *wrong?* (even though it is explicitly allowed)? The ones who find it frustrating, that is.
Not only. I think it can be very tempting for many people to say "well, I had a uterine prolapse and I kept on having babies so she should, too," or whatever. But every family has different circumstances, so it's good for the discernment to be left to the couple (starting with certain sound principles), rather than for a church to say something like "financial strain is never a morally legitimate reason to abstain" or something like that.
It goes the other way, too: "She must be in such bad health because she had all those babies, and it's her own fault. I'm in good health because I used NFP!" That's not fair, either.
Yes it’s so interesting to see how others weight up certain factors in decision-making! I love interviews as a genre for this very reason.
Prudence is by definition the application of a general moral norm to particular circumstances, so one person making a prudent choice is not going to look like another making a prudent choice bc they each have different particular circumstances… but I think the conversation around big families and welcoming children could benefit from clarity around what the general moral norm to be prudently implemented is. (It’s a foundational question that sometimes gets skipped.)
I mean, it doesn’t have to be done here! :) I just meant that I think sometimes it gets lost in conversation.
"I think the conversation around big families and welcoming children could benefit from clarity around what the general moral norm to be prudently implemented is."
I understand there are serious mental and physical considerations (and many other things!), but from what I've gathered from many people I've interacted with, aspects of money and what it can provide for childhood (or lump sums for college/weddings/down payments) plays an ENORMOUS factor. And I wonder if it should. I don't know. Maybe this is different than what you're describing. But certain levels of finances almost come into the "moral" aspect in an odd way.
I think financial considerations interact with all sorts of other considerations. A family without financial worries may not have adequate social support to weather another HG pregnancy, for example, while a very poor family may have the social support needed to go ahead and have more kids, for example. That is to say, I think that many big factors come together in a different constellation for each family.
Ahh gotcha. Yes, absolutely. I'm thinking more along the lines of, "if you can't pay for their college tuition, it's irresponsible to have that child."
Yeah, you are totally right. I do think a lot of people set a pretty high financial bar for themselves in terms of "when it's okay to have/have more children." Carney showed that this is a huge factor in young people not wanting to have kids or delaying having kids.
Also, that word: "irresponsible." It points to the idea, so prevalent in modern American culture, that no one should ask anything of anyone else unless they are paying for it. In that calculus, the fact that a child might one day have to get a student loan or a scholarship makes it irresponsible to bring that child into existence. I think that is deeply wrongheaded.
But as I write these words, I'm aware that I may sound like I'm saying I know the perfect point at which "not having enough money" suddenly stops becoming a good reason to not have children. I don't know it. And maybe it is different from one family to another. But still, it does seem that we ought to be able to make generalizations about these things...but maybe we need to make them more humbly than we generally do.
That's an intriguing insight, Kerri. Can you say a little more about this? I'm having trouble grasping what level of moral norm you mean. Can you give a "for example" to help me understand?
(I may have been thinking of "welcoming children prudently" as the moral norm, which is then applied by couples according to their circumstances and discernment.
But if prudence means applying the moral norm according to discernment, then this doesn't work *as* a moral norm.)
Yes. So for Catholics, for example, the nature of marriage having a dual telos of union for the couple and procreation of children would imply that those two things are morally normative in marriage. When and how may vary by couple, but to do anything *against* these ends would not be a prudent implementation of the norm, but rather a rejection of it.
If a couple believed in having an “open marriage” for what they thought was the good of their union, they may want to claim that it’s merely a prudent decision about how to best be united. But in fact it is contrary.
I think what I was trying to say is that sometimes in these conversations (*sweeps arm widely and generally*), “prudence” is mistaken for “subjectively good intentions” rather than “subjective implementation of an objective norm.”
I think really it boils down to people using the word “prudence” apart from understanding how that virtue is defined. (Again, not here, just in general!)
Oh, I see. Yes, I think I was using different words in my mind for this. Thanks!
What do I find most encouraging from others? The retirees at daily Mass. They are some of the greatest people I know. We need other adults we trust (and that our kids know and trust). There are several retirement-age women who I see frequently at daily Mass and they often ask to hold a kid, or if my kids are getting squirmy, I know that I can pass one of them off. One time I was walking up to Communion and literally dragging a child who was too big to be carried but too young to have the emotional maturity to just walk. (It was Sunday, so more crowded and with more strangers, but I was there solo with this kid. I was holding the child's hands; the child's belly to toes were sliding across the floor.) After about 4 seconds of doing this, I realized that it was embarrassing, and I spotted a young woman* who I know from daily Mass. I asked my child, "Do you want to sit with her?" and that was agreeable, so I gave the child to the young woman, received Communion, and then hovered nearby in the aisle so I could retrieve my child if things weren't going well. My child sat SO PEACEFULLY with this young woman for the rest of Mass.
I wish I had more contexts wherein I could easily hand my kids off to another adult, but it is what it is. The people who are daily Mass regulars are generally trustworthy and kindhearted people, and it's a small enough crowd that it's not overwhelming numbers of people.
* It's mostly retirees who do things like this but this particular young woman is really great in a similar way. The retirees often tell me they miss their grandkids who are three states away, or they don't have grandkids, and I know it's a joy for them to play peek-a-boo for a few minutes a week. There's one who often tells me, "When I see you, I always hope you'll hand me the baby for Mass." So it's a win-win. They get a baby fix; my arms and back and attention get a much needed respite; my kids learn that Mass is a place full of good people who love God.
Wow. What a blessing such people are, and what an encouragement to become such a person! A little thing like someone taking the baby or helping the toddler can make a parent go from feeling like a total hot mess failure to valued and composed in an instant.
Yes! Health permitting, I plan to be this kind of retiree. It is so helpful when they tell me they miss their grandkids or they miss when their own kids were this little, or if they indicate somehow that it's a joy for them. Otherwise it can feel like pity which doesn't help the hot mess feeling!
The attitude in which help is given matters so much.
I'm going to tell two stories and one will sound like I am tooting my own horn but I promise that's not my intention - many years ago I was on an airplane flight and was sharing a three seat row with a mom who was traveling with a baby and a little boy. I offered to hold her baby so she could get the boy settled in his seat and I remember so clearly the look of relief on her face! At the time I thought she was grateful for the help (and I was happy to provide it! Babies were an uncommon feature of my life at that time!) but now looking back as a mom she was probably also grateful to know that the person she shared a row with wasn't going to spend the whole flight glaring at her and her children.
I also once saw an elderly man on a bus nonchalantly pull out a handkerchief, tie a corner in a knot so that it looked like a rabbit, and spend nearly 10 silent minutes making the rabbit "pop" out of his lunch box, his crossed legs, his crossed arms, all to the wonder of a toddler across the way. He didn't say a single word, he hardly even looked at his "audience" but he welcomed that child and their parent into a public space in the most joyful way. I have never forgotten him.
My point is, in a variety of contexts I think very small gestures can go a long way towards saying to parents and their children, "It is good that you are here. Welcome."
Two wonderful stories! Each one is enough to make a person's day.
Maybe we should cultivate our handkerchief-rabbit skills (or the like) so that we can do this when we're out without kids!
Well now I love that elderly man, whoever he is.
I often think about the fact that the child he was amusing was far too young at the time for that to be a durable memory, but I, who was not the intended audience, will never forget it! Proof that goodness ripples outward and that those who we intend to help are not always the ones who will receive the greatest benefits from our actions.
Church can actually be one of the most difficult places to find a welcome as a large family, especially when we’ve generally chosen to keep our children with us throughout the service. Our church has a note in the bulletin welcoming families with children, telling where the cry room and changing table is and assuring them that squawking is not a problem. It’s one of the things we noticed first! I understand that there’s a lot of different feelings about children in church, and that some really prefer a Sunday School option, but we’ve been so thankful for the appreciation and encouragement of the older folks at church who love our babies (even when we make multiple trips into the foyer during a service — we usually only get a smile). I’m not much of a baby passer myself, but there would be ample arms available if I wanted them :)
Sometimes if I’m by myself in a store and see a mom struggling I make a point to smile and say she’s doing great, but accompany it with “I have 5 at home!” so she knows I’m not saying this from a judgmental place.
We do not live in a place where people are very charitable towards children and it can be so exhausting. I get tired of being looked at like I have two heads whenever I go anywhere with everyone. The rude comments can really get to you, so I agree that verbal encouragement is welcome! “You have a beautiful family” “You’re very blessed” “How fun to have all these siblings!”
I also feel for my children having to overhear the comments and do my best to answer positively no matter what people say, so that they know that regardless of other people’s opinions I am happy to be their mother.
"I also feel for my children having to overhear the comments and do my best to answer positively no matter what people say, so that they know that regardless of other people’s opinions I am happy to be their mother."
In my opinion, this is the most important thing about these interactions: what our responses mean to our children!
I agree about church. I don't know how to change certain church cultures so that, for example, people offer to hold babies or help with toddlers, as Mary describes happening at daily Mass at her church; in some churches, this happens, and in others, it doesn't. I think the pastor can really help by setting a tone, and things like changing tables and announcements and such, as you note, can really help! But other than that, I don't know what to do. I try to offer to hold babies, but only once or twice at church has someone else offered to hold my baby...it's weird. Is it something about me? Or our parish? Or what?
I don't want to get into the "what is the place/proper role/behavior of kids in church" argument here (I know you don't want to either!) but I really am curious to know what needs to change so that grannies and aunties in the wider community feel safe and comfortable and willing to offer help. Maybe the grannies and aunties are not getting the love and support they need? Maybe mother and fathers can do something to help be more open and welcoming and supportive to those in the community who aren't surrounded by kids?
It's a bigger question than I can answer.
But -- we can do so much to encourage others by just being positive and warm when we see them out with their children!
Re. the grannies and aunties thing — I do think some of this is on the younger moms for being too wary, or not liking the way they do things. I am thinking of one dear lady in particular who I pushed back against so hard because she is just such a baby kisser and it drove me crazy… AND several years later as we prepare to move she’s one of the people I’ll miss most. Our co-op this year (and specifically structuring it so that we expressed a real need and desire for help from the older women) went a long way to building those relationships and just creating some comfortability. And I absolutely agree that the pastor sets the tone. Ours has seven children, a few of whom are often the squawking ones, so the fact that he is completely unbothered by it, I think smoothes the tone from some who might otherwise be curmudgeons. But I do think the street must be walked both ways, and I’ve definitely been too stand offish to my own detriment.
Your story gives me a lot to ponder. I do think people -- especially men -- are afraid to offer help, in case someone takes offense or worse. I also think moms are afraid to ask for help, for a variety of reasons.
I was thinking yesterday about the movie "Steel Magnolia," and the women in it whom none of the other women like. And yet they still accept and embrace her as part of their tight-knit group.
Maybe because our communities aren't as frequently characterized by long-term, lieflong or even generational roots these days as they once were, we don't have ways of having conflict (or even dislike) and yet still going on in relationship with a person. We aren't connected enough for our relationships to be able to handle the rejection or hurt that comes from a crossed line or a misunderstanding. Our social ties are often based, instead, on perfect behavior.
Would that we had communities in which a mom telling an older lady point blank (sometimes, this may be needed!) to back off -- or an older lady telling a mom point blank (sometimes, this may be needed!) to make her kid cut it out -- wouldn't be disastrous, but would be a flash in the pan thing that could be dealt with in a stable social context.
A person "gets burned" and then they stop trying.
"We aren't connected enough for our relationships to be able to handle the rejection or hurt that comes from a crossed line or a misunderstanding. Our social ties are often based, instead, on perfect behavior." - This is 100% correct Dixie. Recently we were at donuts after Mass and my husband was essentially body slammed by a ~10 year old boy who was running through the crowded parish hall playing tag with his friends. My husband was not physically injured but he was, we'll say highly irked, and we left immediately. We do not know this boy's family but we see them weekly at Mass and due to the status differences between us we do not feel comfortable engaging with them in this scenario. However, if the shoe is ever on the other foot I would not want someone to do what we did! I would want them to say (to my child, if they were old enough to understand as this child was), "This is not appropriate behavior and you nearly hurt someone, please stop."
What a great illustration, Amy. Yes, we seem to have lost our customs for the space in between "do not engage" and "go nuclear," both in terms of actions and in terms of feelings. It strikes me that several decades ago, you probably would have had some more options, and you probably would have been able to expect a respectful response from both the child and his parents after the collision! There would have been a social contract about how such things could be handled.
I think this is why people call the cops on a child who is at the park unsupervised or the like, instead of talking to the child, or waiting with the child and talking with the parent. Or just keeping an eye out in case the child needed help. People *do* feel concerned or upset or whatever, but they are afraid/don't know how to interact over that. So they call the cops.
On your Steel Magnolias comment and getting burned: yes. I’m cautiously optimistic that this will change, at least in parishes that have child-friendly cultures and as bigger families become more common. Moms who have raised some and, I think, especially lots of children have less problem risking offense because we’ve been there. At least I know I’m more like this. And I think our kids will be, too. And helps breeds help; it’s easier to be helpful to big families when there are big families all over the place.
And also yes on the pastor response. My pastor husband purposely smiles when he has to pause for kid yelling during church. Everyone knows he loves kids because he has eight. That’s a huge church culture statement.
I think the mere presence of big families (or children in general, whether from big families or small) does go a long way! But I also see situations in which the number of big families gives the illusion of a supportive culture, but there is a lack of intergenerational interaction and mutual support -- i.e. there are a lot of big families, but their only social interactions are peer interactions. This causes problems because A) young parents miss out on the gift of wisdom from older generations and the gift of energy from even younger people, and B) parents of large families are very limited in what kind of support they can offer to each other. That's why we need the aunties and the grandmas and the 14-year-olds! They can help parents with young children in a way that such families cannot help each other.
This seems to need some sort of deliberate intervention to make happen -- to make an intergenerational community develop out of a peer-based one.
I know it used to happen organically, based on many generations of families in the same locale. I don't know if it can happen organically in this different context that is lacking in longterm foundations. I do know that at least sometimes it doesn't happen organically.
Absolutely true—just because big families are around doesn’t mean there’s support, especially intergenerational. I think when Christians are, well, Christians and we pay attention to our neighbors, we pew sitters step in to lend hands as we are able (thinking of some church grandmas here who have problems with balance, etc., who could hold a small baby but not really be able to do much with a squirmy toddler). But I’ve been in groups and in churches where older people—often with their own grandchildren that they watch/care for regularly—don’t do anything to help clearly struggling moms and dads with many children. Maybe they were clueless, maybe it was a generational judgment (“well, you’re only supposed to have as many kids as I did or people around me did when we were your age. If you have more, that’s on you, and I’m not helping”). The latter is a worst case scenario, of course, but I do think there are shades of it that happen.
We’re blessed to be at a church now where people step in all the time: moms and teenage daughters with no younger siblings help with other people’s littles; empty nesters with no grandkids share pews with my family and others. I think having a lot of people who are transplants to our area makes a difference. When people move as adults and aren’t around biological family, they appreciate when others care for them, and they turn and do the same for others.
I was thinking the other day when I posted that eventually, the rise of bigger families should be reflected in ongoing care of families as time passes. Hannah’s Children writ large, as it were. Older women who’ve “been there” will model what older women historically always have done prior to fifty or so years ago. Call it sanctification Titus 2 style or whatever, but it will be more organic and naturally generous. At least I’m starting to see that now and hope it will continue. Yes, I know it isn’t everywhere, but things have to start somewhere, right?
Good thread, once again. 😊
That’s awful. I’m so sorry to hear it. Our church likes to say, “a quiet church is a dying church.” And trust me, there are lots of big families and chaotic kids and to keep the church from being quiet! “Let the children come to me.” ❤️
I have a chip on my shoulder about this because of the insistence on silence at church when we first moved here, which still stings me. But in practice, that insistence is largely gone now at our parish, which is wonderful!
I’ve found from a few towns in which I’ve lived, the churches that adopt this attitude really grow! In one town, we had a huge influx of new families one Sunday and when I asked why, they said they had a visiting priest at their parish who lectured everyone about keeping their children quiet and then the older parishioners applauded. So sad and detrimental to the parish as a whole.
I was at a play date recently where a mom was sharing about her struggles with a sixth baby and another mom responded about how much she loved being from a family of six kids. It was such an encouraging comment and made everyone smile. I think it can be helpful to be reminded of the big picture (and not in the sometimes annoying “you’ll miss this” or “it goes by so fast” type comments). I know I benefited from Jen Fulwiler’s perspective on imagining a future thanksgiving table. It’s SO easy to get bogged down in the daily struggles of the little kid phase.
That's lovely -- something like, "My family was like yours and I had a wonderful childhood!"
What a great summary of much of the book! I was extremely glad to have read (listened to) it this week.
I especially liked your question on practical help and encouragement. That was one thing, during the course of the book, I really wish we could have heard more about. There was *some* of that, but really the only itch I wanted scratched by the end of it was a bit more of logistics. For those who weren't homeschooling, how did they school? Did they have any other helpers besides the older siblings? How did they manage doctor's appointments? Were they near any grandparents? Did they do any swapping with women in their church when they needed a break? How did they do many of the things I have so many questions about regarding large families!
I realize that was not the focused aim of the research, just something I would have liked to ask the women if if was up to me. :)
It's funny, because people say women just want you to listen -- they don't want help with solutions. Well, I want help with solutions! But yes, that wasn't the point of this particular study, and that's fine.
I think you were reading Tim Carney's new book, too, right Haley? In some ways I think these two books can go well together. Pakaluk on the why/understanding, Carney on the how.
I guess we just keep going, keep trying, and keep doing our best to encourage one another!
Yep, I think those two books need to be bundled and read together, honestly. Each illuminate gaps and answer questions the other doesn’t get to.
Haley I am planning to take your advice and read them as a sort of diptych! And I also LOVE familial logistics. I can't remember the name of the Substack series but someone is doing one on how women are doing their various types of work (I think you've restacked it so I am pretty sure you already read it) and I just dig it so much. I think this dates back to my blog-reading days, I find it very helpful when people explain not just what their life consists of but how they make it work!
Are you thinking of Kerri Christopher's Life Outside the Box series? I really enjoy those interviews!
Yes, that's it!! And she's been commenting on this very thread, so now I'm really embarrassed!
Don't be embarrassed -- Kerri is the nicest ever, and she'll be so delighted that you enjoy the interviews! Nobody remembers names and series names all the time...
I enjoyed the article. One observation I have: I appreciate the recommendation to people to offer help in the form of time. However, the later discussion that motherhood is a season and women with large families can eventually move into careers is actually missing the bigger picture. If women only give themselves to motherhood while there children are still in the home, and later give themselves to full time employment, there will be no grandmas, great-grandmas or aunties to lend a hand to the younger women in the throes of child rearing. I guess I mean to say that Motherhood is a calling and never actually ends. I have a large family (7 kids) and 6 grandkids so far. My youngest child is still at home. If I pursue a career after she leaves the nest, I will not have much or any time or availability to help my children raise their kids. I think we Grandmas should consider this as our phase of motherhood changes. I have found great blessing to help with the babies as they have arrived, as have my children in their years of caring for nieces and nephews at my side.
Thank you for this observation, Dawn. I think the author was trying to give hope to those women who seek careers later in life, but I also think that you are noting something equally important: that full-time homemaking is a good that can go far beyond the "littles" years. I do agree that mothering never ends, and I would add that this is the case for mothers with outside careers, too; but I get what you mean about the energy and attention needed to mother well. We have to remember that kids don't stop needing us as they get older!
Indeed, the lack of intergenerational support among women (perhaps among men, too? But I'm less familiar with that) is a real problem that could be significantly improved by the presence of more older homemakers, I think. But to do that, at least some younger homemakers need to turn into older homemakers! And it would be helpful for many to do this deliberately.
I am certainly starting to see in my own life (my eldest child is almost 13) that there is a shift in the energies needed as a homemaker starts to have teenagers. It is not a lessening of energies -- there's still a lot of need here! We should make sure that we don't mistake that shift as an indication that focusing one's energies on homemaking and full-time child-rearing is no longer appropriate.
I'm glad different women can do different things according to their own circumstances, including careers! But society does also need homemakers at all ages/stages of family life, and across family boundaries, too!
Did you see my friend Ivana Greco's outstanding piece on the beauty and craft of homemaking at Public Discourse this week? She does a good job explaining the long-term value of building expertise and sticking with homemaking: https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2024/05/94909/
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I’ll check out that link soon. My own mother and father in retirement years have poured into our children’s lives (and now the grand- and great-grandchildren) in ways that have added immeasurable value to our family.
You are correct to observe that though it seems that the parenting load should lighten as children become more independent, it actually gets more complex. And also (hopefully) more enjoyable as we develop friendships with the blossoming adults. My friends and I all thought we would pick up hobbies and pursuits when our homeschooled children graduated but we now have less time to pursue our many interests than ever….but we all rejoice in the overflowing bounty of this new season. We have narrowed our focus to pursuits that can include our adult children and grandchildren and in this our joy increases exponentially!
I had decided long ago to forego career outside the home, and it turns out that I am glad to continue my vocation as homemaker and assistant-homemaker to the new families our kids are establishing. I am also seeking to encourage my daughters and DILs in this eternally rewarding path as well. So I guess I am one of those previous young homemakers who is turning into an older homemaker! And as it turns out, kids young and old never stop needing their moms.
I am very thankful for this gift that you are giving to your family and your wider community! And how wonderful to see such support handed down through generations, each first being supported and then supporting the next generation of first-time parents.
Dawn and Dixie, I’m so glad for your comments here! The availability of older women (and how that is able to happen) is also a very valid concern.
We have 5 children - I wanted more but my husband said, "I think 5 is a good number." ;) Now that my children are grown, I like to babysit for my young friends with young children, to give them a nice evening out together. Having had 3 rambunctious boys, I can commiserate with them while attesting to "this stage too shall pass."
What a lovely thing to do, Edie. I'm sure that means a lot to your friends -- and I bet you are developing special relationships with their children, too!
Just finished watching Stephen Shaw's documentary Birthgap: Childless World the other night. The stats on childlessness and birth rates are disturbing and that is putting it lightly.
I think some of the really scary stats need to be shouted from the roof tops to high school and college aged women. For instance Stephen states that if a woman reaches 30 with no children she is only 50% likely to have any child at all!
I haven't seen that documentary, but I agree that this is all very concerning, and that there's not a lot of awareness about it.
I do know that in subcultures that prioritize family (or at least at the Catholic college at which my husband teaches!), this is actually very well understood. Sometimes these young people need encouragement to remember that it's okay if you are 21 and haven't found a spouse yet -- there's still time! But in the general culture, I think the mood and advice for people in their twenties is a bit misleading. One does read these plaintive essays by women in their mid-thirties who really did think that having a first baby at 35 would be as easy as at 28 or 25 or 23. And they didn't realize because the whole culture was telling them that they shouldn't even be considering settling down until well into their thirties.
We all have our own paths to take, but it is frustrating when the advice and information that the culture stresses to young people is just inaccurate.
The comments on this post are so refreshing. So much honesty is happening. I have not read "Hannah's Children" although I just added it to my want to read list on Goodreads. As a sometimes very frazzled mother of now five children, eight and under, it means so much to me when people verbally encourage me or tell me how much they love seeing my family at mass or that my family is beautiful to them. I think I can relate to being too easily spooked when older women at my parish have stepped in to help me. It's really hard to decide in those harried moments of baby fussing, toddler attempting to escape, five year old giggling, etc. what my comfort level is in accepting help from older women who I like very much but don't know a whole lot about. This is good food for thought. Someone also mentioned in the comments that in order for older women to choose to continue to "stay home" after their children are grown in order to help with their grandchildren, younger moms need to express a desire and need for their help or else they will not know that there is a beautiful role for them still in the community in a maternal capacity. It's a chance for me to reevaluate what my boundaries are, and consider where I could ask for more help or how I could push my comfort level a little bit in that area and just see how it goes. We need each other, desperately.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience, Brooklyn. I think it's important to remember that nobody can be perfect in these interactions, and it's okay if you don't always quite know what to do in the middle of the "frazzle!" I am often in that situation, too. I would love for us to develop relationships within communities that have reslience enough to brush past this kind of thing. We'll get there!
Exactly, in those stressful moments, mamas might not be very able to accept help in a way they have never considered before. The idea of spending some time to think about how I could ask for or receive help from kind older women at my parish is worth sitting with and I am glad for that little nugget which was sparked by reading these comments. Thanks for facilitating this much needed conversation!
We live in a neighborhood where many of our friends from our church have also bought homes. In some cases, it’s been a sacrifice to those of us who dreamed of a more agrarian life, but it’s also so full of blessing that it has been great. There are grandparents on the street who give the kids Graham crackers at 3 pm if they can recite a poem. There are a couple of multi unit homes where grad students and young singles live who offer to babysit. There are kids of all ages running around. I never worry about appointments because there are high school girls and like 8 families who are willing to watch each other’s children. We all homeschool so are used to popping in to borrow a cup of sugar from a woman whose house has been destroyed by toddlers while she schools big kids It has been such a huge blessing and i wish everyone had it!! Truly…such a gift that priests who have been here and move try to convince their parishioners to start moving closer together. The only problem is that it’s risky to go in an evening walk because someone will offer you a cocktail and before you know it, you’re pooling your dinner and hanging out far too long into the night. Haha!
What a wonderful blessing, Kelsi! Hopefully the kids who grow up in this environment will go on to be generous neighbors as adults. You are doing great work!